Arvid & Tyler Catch Up

[Arvid Kahl]: Welcome to Arvid and Tyler Catch Up.
I'm Arvid.

[Tyler Tringas]: I'm Tyler. Let's catch up.
What's up with you man?

[Arvid Kahl]: Oh, I've been thinking a lot about
writing this week. So coming off of MicroConf,

[Arvid Kahl]: I've been kind of reading a lot.
But on the trip, I brought one book, which

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: was Paul Millerd's book, you know,
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: was Paul Millerd's book, you know,

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: was Paul Millerd's book, you know,

[Arvid Kahl]: was Paul Millerd's book, you know,

[Arvid Kahl]: The Pathless Path,

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: and that book is written so well.
It's highly inspirational. Just the idea of
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: and that book is written so well.
It's highly inspirational. Just the idea of

[Arvid Kahl]: the concept of the book is really
cool, and I've been reading

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: the concept of the book is really
cool, and I've been reading

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: that and really enjoying it. And
at MicroConf, as a speaker, I got one of the
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: that and really enjoying it. And
at MicroConf, as a speaker, I got one of the

[Arvid Kahl]: 25 copies in the whole world of
Rob Walling's new book. The SAS playbook got

[Arvid Kahl]: that here, which is also really
well done. Like, it's really for a self-published

[Arvid Kahl]: book. And those I find inspirational
in particular. It's super high quality. The

[Arvid Kahl]: design is cool. The dust jacket
is really nice. Well designed. I talked to

[Arvid Kahl]: Rob about this. And he spent quite
some money on just getting it right, particularly

[Arvid Kahl]: compared to his first book, Start
Small, Stay Small, which has the cover design

[Arvid Kahl]: skill level of, I think he admitted
that like a a 10 year old because he has no

[Arvid Kahl]: idea what he was doing back then
or had no

[Tyler Tringas]: Uh

[Arvid Kahl]: idea.
[Tyler Tringas]: Uh

[Arvid Kahl]: idea.

[Tyler Tringas]: huh.
[Arvid Kahl]: idea.

[Arvid Kahl]: And it looks like just somebody
opened a Word document, printed out a page,

[Arvid Kahl]: and that's now the cover. But
no, it's just it's a great book. It just looks

[Arvid Kahl]: like

[Tyler Tringas]: Uh-huh.
[Arvid Kahl]: like

[Tyler Tringas]: Uh-huh.

[Arvid Kahl]: it's self-published. This one
does not. And I've been inspired to keep writing

[Arvid Kahl]: because as a writer myself, I
just want to write cool stuff and seeing books.

[Arvid Kahl]: I'm going to thinking more about
writing books. So I was talking to Brennan

[Arvid Kahl]: Dunn, who has a book coming out
as well. And he's been sending out, you know,

[Arvid Kahl]: early advanced copies to his friends,
which for some reason includes me. And I'm

[Arvid Kahl]: really happy about that. So I
got to read his book and that was inspirational.

[Arvid Kahl]: So I chatted with Brennan about
like how he got this publishing deal, which

[Arvid Kahl]: he seemed to have gotten for this
book because

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: he seemed to have gotten for this
book because

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: I've been self publishing. And
I've been talking to a lot of people who've
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: I've been self publishing. And
I've been talking to a lot of people who've

[Arvid Kahl]: been self publishing in the past,
but he found a publisher and I thought, well,

[Arvid Kahl]: My next one is going to be hopefully
about building in public, something that, besides

[Arvid Kahl]: our project, the Comm MBA, which
is more SaaS focused, building

[Tyler Tringas]: Okay.
[Arvid Kahl]: our project, the Comm MBA, which
is more SaaS focused, building

[Tyler Tringas]: Okay.

[Arvid Kahl]: public is more audience, community
building, and just live the life that you want

[Arvid Kahl]: to live and build your business
and your brand at the same time kind of focused.

[Arvid Kahl]: So I've been thinking, do I need
a publisher? Do I want a publisher? Do I want

[Arvid Kahl]: to keep self-publishing? That
has worked well for me over the past. Or do

[Arvid Kahl]: I want to see if there is some
other way of getting the message out there?

[Arvid Kahl]: because both what you and I have
been doing and sharing our thoughts on this

[Arvid Kahl]: podcast and on on the internet
and on Twitter and stuff that is building in

[Arvid Kahl]: public and it has been working
pretty well for both of us. So maybe we should

[Arvid Kahl]: I thought we should get this kind
of story and by we I mean myself out further

[Arvid Kahl]: right into the bigger world that
is not just indie hackers and not just creators

[Arvid Kahl]: but somebody else and for that
a publisher would be cool. but maybe it is

[Arvid Kahl]: just for indie hackers and creators
or they would benefit the most from this. So

[Arvid Kahl]: I should kind of keep it in this
community. I've been thinking a lot about this.

[Arvid Kahl]: And honestly, I don't think

[Tyler Tringas]: in.
[Arvid Kahl]: And honestly, I don't think

[Arvid Kahl]: And honestly, I don't think

[Arvid Kahl]: I have answers. I talked to a
couple of people, Brandon introduced me to

[Arvid Kahl]: people who work in the publishing
industry and, you know, deal with agents and

[Arvid Kahl]: getting book proposals out. And
I talked to one guy who's been doing book proposals

[Arvid Kahl]: for like large publishing deals.
And he kind of tried to steer me away. from

[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: for like large publishing deals.
And he kind of tried to steer me away. from

[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: thinking about publishing itself
as a necessary, like, evil or a necessary way
[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: thinking about publishing itself
as a necessary, like, evil or a necessary way

[Arvid Kahl]: of getting the book out there
between self-publishing and regular old traditional

[Arvid Kahl]: publishing, there seem to be ways
to do hybrid publishing where essentially you

[Arvid Kahl]: pay people to be your editors
instead of having the publisher pay them, right?

[Arvid Kahl]: Publishers are kind of VC in a
way, they try to get, like, make bets on books

[Arvid Kahl]: and pay for everything and then
you get an advance and maybe you get royalties

[Arvid Kahl]: later and self-publishing is essentially
bootstrapping without any

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: later and self-publishing is essentially
bootstrapping without any

[Arvid Kahl]: kind of funding. And then there's
in between, funny enough, like there is a comfund

[Arvid Kahl]: version of book publishing, right?

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm.
[Arvid Kahl]: version of book publishing, right?

[Arvid Kahl]: version of book publishing, right?

[Arvid Kahl]: There's the kind of this, okay,
yeah, we take you on, we give you like some

[Arvid Kahl]: access to this kind of network
and we help you through, it costs you pretty

[Arvid Kahl]: little apparently. I haven't really
looked

[Tyler Tringas]: What's

[Arvid Kahl]: into this
[Tyler Tringas]: What's

[Arvid Kahl]: into this

[Tyler Tringas]: it called?
[Arvid Kahl]: into this

[Tyler Tringas]: it called?

[Arvid Kahl]: much, but the whole idea is hybrid
publishing. As you get the, it's not the exact
[Tyler Tringas]: it called?

[Arvid Kahl]: much, but the whole idea is hybrid
publishing. As you get the, it's not the exact

[Arvid Kahl]: same thing as what comfund is,
like they don't

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah,
[Arvid Kahl]: same thing as what comfund is,
like they don't

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah,

[Arvid Kahl]: pay
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah,

[Arvid Kahl]: pay

[Tyler Tringas]: yeah,
[Arvid Kahl]: pay

[Tyler Tringas]: yeah,

[Arvid Kahl]: you money,
[Tyler Tringas]: yeah,

[Arvid Kahl]: you money,

[Tyler Tringas]: I get
[Arvid Kahl]: you money,

[Tyler Tringas]: I get

[Arvid Kahl]: you
[Tyler Tringas]: I get

[Arvid Kahl]: you

[Tyler Tringas]: it.

[Arvid Kahl]: kind of pay them as a service
provider, but the idea is that they have the
[Tyler Tringas]: it.

[Arvid Kahl]: kind of pay them as a service
provider, but the idea is that they have the

[Arvid Kahl]: logistics. and a distribution
to get your book into, I don't know what traditional

[Arvid Kahl]: publishers would do, get you into
airports, get you into bookstores, right?

[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm

[Arvid Kahl]: What is always extremely hard
for people like me because my books are print

[Arvid Kahl]: on demand. So I'm

[Tyler Tringas]: Right.

[Arvid Kahl]: not gonna get them into airports
unless I do a kind of partnership with somebody
[Tyler Tringas]: Right.

[Arvid Kahl]: not gonna get them into airports
unless I do a kind of partnership with somebody

[Arvid Kahl]: who puts them in there. So all
of this is currently happening as I'm speaking

[Arvid Kahl]: about it. I'm still trying to
figure out where I'm going. Honestly, I just

[Arvid Kahl]: wanna write. I don't even wanna
deal with this kind of stuff because... as

[Arvid Kahl]: it's kind of like a software developer,
you don't want to do marketing as a writer,

[Arvid Kahl]: you don't want to do this kind
of operational stuff either, right? Somebody

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: you don't want to do this kind
of operational stuff either, right? Somebody

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: else supposedly should be better
at doing this. But yeah, again, I find as a
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: else supposedly should be better
at doing this. But yeah, again, I find as a

[Arvid Kahl]: founder, I'm wearing 20 different
hats. And

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: founder, I'm wearing 20 different
hats. And

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: as a writer, I'm wearing an equal
amount of slightly different hats.
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: as a writer, I'm wearing an equal
amount of slightly different hats.

[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm

[Arvid Kahl]: And that's been that's been my
week essentially trying to figure out where

[Arvid Kahl]: I want to go with this still undecided.
If you have any opinions on this, as somebody

[Arvid Kahl]: who almost published a book.

[Tyler Tringas]: I'm sorry.

[Arvid Kahl]: But we'll put a book out there
as well. You've been writing a lot on the SaaS
[Tyler Tringas]: I'm sorry.

[Arvid Kahl]: But we'll put a book out there
as well. You've been writing a lot on the SaaS

[Arvid Kahl]: stuff as well. If you have any
opinions on this, please, please share.

[Tyler Tringas]: Well, I was curious, actually,
as you were talking about this, whether build

[Tyler Tringas]: in public might be the exact
worst topic to pitch to a book publisher, because

[Tyler Tringas]: it's kind of, it's kind of
literally talking about the strategy to avoid

[Tyler Tringas]: having to work with a book
publisher

[Arvid Kahl]: I guess.

[Tyler Tringas]: in some ways, right? I mean,
I know that's not exactly the intent of it,
[Arvid Kahl]: I guess.

[Tyler Tringas]: in some ways, right? I mean,
I know that's not exactly the intent of it,

[Tyler Tringas]: but I could imagine being on
the side of a book publisher and basically

[Tyler Tringas]: reading this as like. You want
to write a book about how to not have to work

[Tyler Tringas]: with a publisher and you want
me to publish it?

[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah,
[Tyler Tringas]: with a publisher and you want
me to publish it?

[Tyler Tringas]: with a publisher and you want
me to publish it?

[Tyler Tringas]: This might

[Arvid Kahl]: that's
[Tyler Tringas]: This might

[Arvid Kahl]: that's

[Tyler Tringas]: not

[Arvid Kahl]: right.
[Tyler Tringas]: not

[Arvid Kahl]: right.

[Tyler Tringas]: be the one to be your test
case for for working with a publisher. I don't

[Tyler Tringas]: know. What do you think about
that?

[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, I mean, building in public
has this effect, right? Like you're kind

[Tyler Tringas]: Right.
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, I mean, building in public
has this effect, right? Like you're kind

[Tyler Tringas]: Right.

[Arvid Kahl]: of, you're on your own journey
and you, everything, and you have to be honest
[Tyler Tringas]: Right.

[Arvid Kahl]: of, you're on your own journey
and you, everything, and you have to be honest

[Arvid Kahl]: too, which in an industry that
is about like ranking high on lists like the

[Arvid Kahl]: New York Times bestseller list
or whatever industry publication you can be

[Arvid Kahl]: in, there's a lot of glorification
of hero figures, like writers that the whole

[Arvid Kahl]: Stephen King on Twitter situation
like has been blown up in all the periodicals.

[Arvid Kahl]: So

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: as a, I'm kind of, I'm a, want
to be a sci-fi writer, so I'm subscribed to

[Arvid Kahl]: Locust magazine, which is kind
of the industry publication for all kinds of

[Arvid Kahl]: sci-fi, who sells which book to
watch publisher and kind of stuff. It's interesting

[Arvid Kahl]: to read, but I don't write much
in that regard. I just, you know, get the information

[Arvid Kahl]: in and

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: there's a lot of hero worship
in those magazines too, because there are names
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: there's a lot of hero worship
in those magazines too, because there are names

[Arvid Kahl]: that you know, like Brandon Sanderson,
big fantasy writer, and when he does something

[Arvid Kahl]: cool he gets a full page article,
right? It's very focused on the celebrities,

[Arvid Kahl]: which is not something I necessarily
want. And I guess I told that person that as

[Arvid Kahl]: well, like who was trying to figure
out if I should be working with a big publisher.

[Arvid Kahl]: And I told him, I don't want to
deal with all this kind of hero stuff or this

[Arvid Kahl]: going on TV for like, you know,
recommending your book on a morning TV show

[Arvid Kahl]: because it's supposed to help
everybody in every audience possible. There

[Arvid Kahl]: is a disconnect because building
in public is a niche thing. Like you wanna

[Arvid Kahl]: be in your community sharing your
story with the people who matter and you don't

[Arvid Kahl]: wanna be on national TV in the
morning in one of these morning shows, talking

[Arvid Kahl]: to whoever might be looking at
the TV at that time. Right, there's

[Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh. Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: to whoever might be looking at
the TV at that time. Right, there's

[Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh. Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: also
[Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh. Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: also

[Tyler Tringas]: I'm
[Arvid Kahl]: also

[Arvid Kahl]: also

[Arvid Kahl]: a big difference there.

[Tyler Tringas]: gonna
[Arvid Kahl]: a big difference there.

[Tyler Tringas]: gonna

[Arvid Kahl]: And
[Tyler Tringas]: gonna

[Arvid Kahl]: And

[Tyler Tringas]: go to bed.
[Arvid Kahl]: And

[Tyler Tringas]: go to bed.

[Arvid Kahl]: I've seen people like Ryan Holiday
on national TV stuff is like, I don't want

[Arvid Kahl]: to do this. Or even James

[Tyler Tringas]: Why
[Arvid Kahl]: to do this. Or even James

[Tyler Tringas]: Why

[Arvid Kahl]: Clear,

[Tyler Tringas]: not?
[Arvid Kahl]: Clear,

[Arvid Kahl]: Clear,

[Arvid Kahl]: right? But, but first off, I don't
want to get up early in the morning. That's

[Arvid Kahl]: one of the biggest problems. But
I honestly like James Clear is an example.

[Arvid Kahl]: And I talked to the guy who writes
these book proposals about this. If you go

[Arvid Kahl]: to like a PTA meeting with you
have kids in school and you go like to the

[Arvid Kahl]: other. with the other parents,
you go to a PTA meeting and you ask people

[Arvid Kahl]: who wants to build in public.
Like nobody is going to, nobody even wants

[Arvid Kahl]: to be an entrepreneur or very
few people in that community want to be an

[Arvid Kahl]: entrepreneur. But if you ask them
who wants to lose weight and like half of them

[Arvid Kahl]: raised their hands and you said,
well, I have the perfect habit forming book

[Arvid Kahl]: for you. This is Atomic Habits
by James Clear. Right?

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: This is the kind of stuff they
need. They need the James Clear stuff, the
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: This is the kind of stuff they
need. They need the James Clear stuff, the

[Arvid Kahl]: highly generic things that are
somewhat ish applicable to every single situation.

[Arvid Kahl]: And yeah, I know, I felt the same

[Tyler Tringas]: I don't
[Arvid Kahl]: And yeah, I know, I felt the same

[Tyler Tringas]: I don't

[Arvid Kahl]: way.

[Tyler Tringas]: know, but I think you might
be
[Arvid Kahl]: way.

[Tyler Tringas]: know, but I think you might
be

[Arvid Kahl]: That's
[Tyler Tringas]: know, but I think you might
be

[Arvid Kahl]: That's

[Tyler Tringas]: selling
[Arvid Kahl]: That's

[Tyler Tringas]: selling

[Arvid Kahl]: what they
[Tyler Tringas]: selling

[Arvid Kahl]: what they

[Tyler Tringas]: yourself
[Arvid Kahl]: what they

[Tyler Tringas]: yourself

[Arvid Kahl]: say though.
[Tyler Tringas]: yourself

[Arvid Kahl]: say though.

[Tyler Tringas]: short a little bit here. I
think if you asked people, you know, who wants
[Arvid Kahl]: say though.

[Tyler Tringas]: short a little bit here. I
think if you asked people, you know, who wants

[Tyler Tringas]: to find a way to build that
project that you've been thinking about and

[Tyler Tringas]: haven't found a way to get
started on, if you framed it slightly different,

[Tyler Tringas]: like, hey, I have a method
that you create public accountability and then

[Tyler Tringas]: you are able to get started
without anyone's permission, I think that would

[Tyler Tringas]: resonate with a lot of people.
businesses necessarily, but it might be, you

[Tyler Tringas]: know, organizational groups
they've been meaning to start or a pickleball

[Tyler Tringas]: league in the neighborhood
they've been meaning to start, right? Like,

[Tyler Tringas]: I mean, I don't know, like,
you might be selling yourself short here. It

[Tyler Tringas]: could have a little bit

[Arvid Kahl]: Thanks.
[Tyler Tringas]: could have a little bit

[Arvid Kahl]: Thanks.

[Tyler Tringas]: wider applicability than you're
thinking.
[Arvid Kahl]: Thanks.

[Tyler Tringas]: wider applicability than you're
thinking.

[Arvid Kahl]: Well, thanks so much for being
constructive in your feedback.

[Tyler Tringas]: Hahaha!

[Arvid Kahl]: Honestly, one of the books that
I always really like that has a strong built-in
[Tyler Tringas]: Hahaha!

[Arvid Kahl]: Honestly, one of the books that
I always really like that has a strong built-in

[Arvid Kahl]: public vibe has been Show Your
Work by Austin Kleon.

[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.

[Arvid Kahl]: That tiny little book, like Still
Like an Artist, Show Your Work, they all
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.

[Arvid Kahl]: That tiny little book, like Still
Like an Artist, Show Your Work, they all

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: are kind of about being a creator
in the public space. And he found a publisher
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: are kind of about being a creator
in the public space. And he found a publisher

[Arvid Kahl]: with a book

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: with a book

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: that obviously resonates and still
sells pretty well. So maybe I should just do
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: that obviously resonates and still
sells pretty well. So maybe I should just do

[Arvid Kahl]: the whole. What in the software
world is like we're striped for cats or something.

[Arvid Kahl]: I should say like, I'm show your
work for, for businesses or something.

[Tyler Tringas]: There you

[Arvid Kahl]: I need
[Tyler Tringas]: There you

[Arvid Kahl]: I need

[Tyler Tringas]: go.
[Arvid Kahl]: I need

[Tyler Tringas]: go.

[Arvid Kahl]: to go
[Tyler Tringas]: go.

[Arvid Kahl]: to go

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: to go

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: and
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: and

[Tyler Tringas]: Well,
[Arvid Kahl]: and

[Tyler Tringas]: Well,

[Arvid Kahl]: just
[Tyler Tringas]: Well,

[Tyler Tringas]: Well,

[Tyler Tringas]: I

[Arvid Kahl]: position
[Tyler Tringas]: I

[Arvid Kahl]: position

[Tyler Tringas]: mean, you know,
[Arvid Kahl]: position

[Tyler Tringas]: mean, you know,

[Arvid Kahl]: myself
[Tyler Tringas]: mean, you know,

[Arvid Kahl]: myself

[Tyler Tringas]: you should
[Arvid Kahl]: myself

[Tyler Tringas]: you should

[Arvid Kahl]: better.
[Tyler Tringas]: you should

[Arvid Kahl]: better.

[Tyler Tringas]: do I think, you know, because
it's funny, I was in Austin a couple weeks
[Arvid Kahl]: better.

[Tyler Tringas]: do I think, you know, because
it's funny, I was in Austin a couple weeks

[Tyler Tringas]: ago, and literally talking
about this exact topic with Paul Miller. And

[Tyler Tringas]: he was talking about, you know,
trying to decide whether or not to work with

[Tyler Tringas]: a publisher for his book. And
he was bringing up some Some kind of cons to

[Tyler Tringas]: it that I hadn't thought about
in the sense of, uh, you know, them having

[Tyler Tringas]: like control over derivative
works and stuff like that. So anyway, you should

[Tyler Tringas]: have him on your, uh, on your
main podcast and you guys should just talk

[Tyler Tringas]: about it. I

[Arvid Kahl]: a great

[Tyler Tringas]: think that's
[Arvid Kahl]: a great

[Tyler Tringas]: think that's

[Arvid Kahl]: idea.
[Tyler Tringas]: think that's

[Arvid Kahl]: idea.

[Tyler Tringas]: a no brainer.
[Arvid Kahl]: idea.

[Tyler Tringas]: a no brainer.

[Arvid Kahl]: Let me do this right after we
wrap. I'm just gonna,

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: honestly, I'm just gonna send
him this episode. Let's
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: honestly, I'm just gonna send
him this episode. Let's

[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: honestly, I'm just gonna send
him this episode. Let's

[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.

[Arvid Kahl]: see what he says. That
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.

[Arvid Kahl]: see what he says. That

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah,
[Arvid Kahl]: see what he says. That

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah,

[Arvid Kahl]: is

[Tyler Tringas]: yeah. Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: is

[Tyler Tringas]: yeah. Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: a great idea. Yeah, that's wonderful.
But I've been admiring his work and his approach
[Tyler Tringas]: yeah. Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: a great idea. Yeah, that's wonderful.
But I've been admiring his work and his approach

[Arvid Kahl]: to particularly like his I don't
need the big launch kind of thing. I'm just

[Arvid Kahl]: gonna sell this book like when
it becomes popular, kind of like that as well.

[Arvid Kahl]: So yeah, thanks. That's really
helpful. I'm, you know what, it's a lot of

[Arvid Kahl]: imposter syndrome in this for
me as well, because all of a sudden you play

[Arvid Kahl]: in a different league and you
don't really know

[Tyler Tringas]: Word.
[Arvid Kahl]: in a different league and you
don't really know

[Tyler Tringas]: Word.

[Arvid Kahl]: right with all these these extremely
successful other people but then again why

[Arvid Kahl]: just as well man thanks so much
how has your week been what have you been doing

[Tyler Tringas]: My week has been pretty bad.

[Arvid Kahl]: Aw.

[Tyler Tringas]: Mainly I've just been really,
really sick. I don't often get like really

[Tyler Tringas]: sick for more than a day or
two. And I've been sick for two straight weeks

[Tyler Tringas]: on top of like, you know, a
bunch of other stuff, which we discussed last

[Tyler Tringas]: week. So it's been it's been
a challenging week in terms of really just

[Tyler Tringas]: not being able to get a lot
done. Here I'm still kind of like coming out

[Tyler Tringas]: of it. Got on like a bunch
of antibiotics and stuff a couple of days ago.

[Tyler Tringas]: So I'm feeling much better
now. And this is like starting to be productive

[Tyler Tringas]: again. But, you know, it's
just like really challenging couple of weeks.

[Tyler Tringas]: And like I just had to kind
of continuously remind myself that when you

[Tyler Tringas]: find yourself in this position,
especially as like a founder, where you have

[Tyler Tringas]: a lot of. leverage as a founder
and when you are productive, that's like 10

[Tyler Tringas]: or 20 times more effective
in like a day than a day where you like pound

[Tyler Tringas]: a bunch of coffee and cold
medicine and kind of force yourself to answer

[Tyler Tringas]: some emails. And so like you
feel a bunch of guilt about it, because you'll

[Tyler Tringas]: feel a bunch of things piling
up that need your attention. And like right

[Tyler Tringas]: now I'm feeling that I've had
a lot of stuff that was fairly urgent that

[Tyler Tringas]: needed my attention that I
was just like I think I just need to like log

[Tyler Tringas]: off for a couple of days and,
and try to, to get better because it's just

[Tyler Tringas]: not worth it to, to try and
slog through a little bit of stuff if it, if

[Tyler Tringas]: it drags out an illness. So
that's kind of like a hard one lesson. I've

[Tyler Tringas]: done the opposite of that several
times where, you know, you just end up like

[Tyler Tringas]: kind of ruining several weeks
at a time. But yeah, looking forward to being

[Tyler Tringas]: back at a hundred percent pretty
soon. The other thing that's been going on

[Tyler Tringas]: is just the response from,
you know, last week, I kind of rolled out the

[Tyler Tringas]: announcement about reducing
the team size, having to lay a few people off

[Tyler Tringas]: at CompFund and really narrowing
our focus to, you know, the core job, you know,

[Tyler Tringas]: canceling a couple side projects,
that kind of stuff. And honestly, the response

[Tyler Tringas]: has been just like tremendous.
I can't even respond to all of the emails and

[Tyler Tringas]: DMs that have just been like
100 percent. you know, supportive and encouraging

[Tyler Tringas]: and understanding. Super awesome
to, to feel that I, you know, if, if any of

[Tyler Tringas]: those folks are listening to
this, I really, really appreciate it made a

[Tyler Tringas]: huge difference. Um, during
a pretty tough, a couple of weeks for me personally.

[Tyler Tringas]: And it just reminded me that
like, you almost can't lose as an entrepreneur

[Tyler Tringas]: in a lot of ways, you know,
like you just get so much credit from everyone

[Tyler Tringas]: just for trying that even when
you try something and it's sort of. objectively

[Tyler Tringas]: doesn't work out, right? You
know, you might say it failed, right? You just

[Tyler Tringas]: get so much credit from everyone
for trying. Everybody is still so stoked that

[Tyler Tringas]: you gave it a good shot and
there's almost no real penalty from most people

[Tyler Tringas]: that you care about their opinion
for not succeeding in a particular part of

[Tyler Tringas]: the venture. And everybody
is just ready for you to kind of like. get

[Tyler Tringas]: back on the horse and try again.
So that's been really, really nice, especially

[Tyler Tringas]: the last couple of weeks to
just this, I mean, it's like hundreds of emails

[Tyler Tringas]: and DMs coming in after the
public announcement that, yeah, it was just

[Tyler Tringas]: super supportive. So I'm really
grateful for that.

[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, I'm so happy to hear it.
I'm not surprised that our amazing community

[Arvid Kahl]: acts amazingly, you know,

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: acts amazingly, you know,

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: when,

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: when,

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: when you interact with them, but
I'm super happy to, you know, like for, for
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: when you interact with them, but
I'm super happy to, you know, like for, for

[Arvid Kahl]: you to be in this physical state
of despair, cause you're

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: sick, right? Sick, it just sucks.
You have this, you see the world differently,
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: sick, right? Sick, it just sucks.
You have this, you see the world differently,

[Arvid Kahl]: but then still have this glowing
lights of support and motivation come in and

[Arvid Kahl]: understanding probably most of
all, so that's wonderful. It's one of those

[Arvid Kahl]: things. That's kind of why I want
to do more about building in public as well.

[Arvid Kahl]: This is such a clear example

[Tyler Tringas]: Totally.

[Arvid Kahl]: of your personal journey transcending
the journey of the business. It doesn't, you
[Tyler Tringas]: Totally.

[Arvid Kahl]: of your personal journey transcending
the journey of the business. It doesn't, you

[Arvid Kahl]: being you and you learning and
you growing and you sharing this, it could

[Arvid Kahl]: have been great what happened
to Com. It could have been, it was kind of

[Arvid Kahl]: bad what happened to Com, but
either way, there's something that strengthens

[Arvid Kahl]: the bond between the people that
are around you and you through whatever comes,

[Arvid Kahl]: which is such a cool phenomenon.
That's something that... If you hadn't shared

[Arvid Kahl]: your journey, you would just be
alone and sad and people would get mad at you.

[Arvid Kahl]: But now you've built this goodwill
and people actually also want you to succeed.

[Arvid Kahl]: And no matter what happens, they're
there for you. That's such a wonderful thing.

[Arvid Kahl]: I'm really happy to hear this.

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, I think you're totally
right that like, you know, this is an exemplar,

[Tyler Tringas]: an example of the value of
building in public, right? Because the decisions

[Tyler Tringas]: that we made were sort of laid
out along the way, people knew the bets we

[Tyler Tringas]: were taking, the risks we were
taking, the upside of the decision, why we

[Tyler Tringas]: made these decisions, you know,
and that was kind of laid out and publicly

[Tyler Tringas]: documented and then kind of
landing on, well, here are the outcomes of

[Tyler Tringas]: those and here are the decisions
we need to make. I think You just get a lot

[Tyler Tringas]: more goodwill and just kind
of trust from folks. Whereas if they just see

[Tyler Tringas]: the, you know, the, the outside
effects without the kind of behind the scenes

[Tyler Tringas]: explanations, I think people,
you know, some portion of people will, will

[Tyler Tringas]: fill in the explanation for
that

[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah.
[Tyler Tringas]: fill in the explanation for
that

[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah.

[Tyler Tringas]: series of events with kind
of
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah.

[Tyler Tringas]: series of events with kind
of

[Arvid Kahl]: That's

[Tyler Tringas]: like
[Arvid Kahl]: That's

[Tyler Tringas]: like

[Arvid Kahl]: right.

[Tyler Tringas]: the, you know, the worst case
scenario, right in a, in a lot of ways. And
[Arvid Kahl]: right.

[Tyler Tringas]: the, you know, the worst case
scenario, right in a, in a lot of ways. And

[Tyler Tringas]: I really don't think. I haven't
found anybody. I was certainly worried a little

[Tyler Tringas]: bit that there might be some
backlash. We have a lot of investors and stuff

[Tyler Tringas]: like that that might say like,
oh, this sucks. You're not doing as well as

[Tyler Tringas]: I thought you would or something
like that. And there was just none of that,

[Tyler Tringas]: absolutely none. So it was
actually fantastic.

[Arvid Kahl]: It's kind of hard to get mad at
somebody who's been honest with you the whole

[Arvid Kahl]: time.

[Tyler Tringas]: Right.

[Arvid Kahl]: Right?
[Tyler Tringas]: Right.

[Arvid Kahl]: Right?

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: Right?

[Arvid Kahl]: Right?

[Arvid Kahl]: Just want to get

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: Just want to get

[Arvid Kahl]: Just want to get

[Arvid Kahl]: you get mad at yourself for maybe
having inflated expectations if there's nothing

[Arvid Kahl]: that you can cling on onto. That's
really cool. Yeah, but wonderful. You just

[Arvid Kahl]: kind of co wrote a chapter for
my book. So thank you so much,

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: kind of co wrote a chapter for
my book. So thank you so much,

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: because I'm going to use this
as an example, because lots of people have
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: because I'm going to use this
as an example, because lots of people have

[Arvid Kahl]: been asking around building in
public, well, where are the negative examples?

[Arvid Kahl]: Where is where something went
wrong? And how did that affect people? I think

[Arvid Kahl]: this is as positive as can be
for such a negative example, right? Stuff didn't

[Arvid Kahl]: work, you still got something
out of it. That's that's exactly what I love

[Arvid Kahl]: about that story. Even though
I wish it would have happened differently for

[Arvid Kahl]: so many reasons. But the way it
happened, the way you communicated has been

[Arvid Kahl]: stellar. And I'm very happy to
see that. Yeah, people don't they did not have

[Arvid Kahl]: an avenue of complaining, which
is great. You come, you covered your bases.

[Arvid Kahl]: That's what you

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: That's what you

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: did in many ways, right? In a
positive and I guess empowering way for others
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: did in many ways, right? In a
positive and I guess empowering way for others

[Arvid Kahl]: to learn from. That's really cool.
Well, I'm glad we live in a community where

[Arvid Kahl]: everybody understands each other,

[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: where everybody kind of knows
where we are going with the thing that we're
[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: where everybody kind of knows
where we are going with the thing that we're

[Arvid Kahl]: doing. Like they understand

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: doing. Like they understand

[Arvid Kahl]: doing. Like they understand

[Arvid Kahl]: that there's risk in entrepreneurship
and that they also understand that this risk

[Arvid Kahl]: is worth failing from time to
time.

[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm

[Arvid Kahl]: I think that's the big difference.
Because if you had people who don't understand
[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm

[Arvid Kahl]: I think that's the big difference.
Because if you had people who don't understand

[Arvid Kahl]: this, they probably would have
responded differently to your announcement,

[Arvid Kahl]: right?

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, absolutely.
[Arvid Kahl]: right?

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, absolutely.

[Arvid Kahl]: Well, maybe we should use this
opportunity to dive into the topic of today,

[Arvid Kahl]: which is

[Tyler Tringas]: Let's do it.
[Arvid Kahl]: which is

[Tyler Tringas]: Let's do it.

[Arvid Kahl]: very much,
[Tyler Tringas]: Let's do it.

[Arvid Kahl]: very much,

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: very much related to this. I've
been, uh, at MicroConf, I was talking about

[Arvid Kahl]: fundamental health, right? The
problems that we all commonly share, being

[Arvid Kahl]: overworked, doing a lot of things.
And one, one thing that I shared a pretty sad

[Arvid Kahl]: story for my life, um, from was
social isolation, feeling alone, feeling

[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: story for my life, um, from was
social isolation, feeling alone, feeling

[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: misunderstood, feeling not, not
supported at all. And I f- Ever since then,
[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: misunderstood, feeling not, not
supported at all. And I f- Ever since then,

[Arvid Kahl]: people have been reaching out
to me, both right there at the venue after

[Arvid Kahl]: I gave my talk and over the next
couple days, plus now in Twitter DMs, sharing

[Arvid Kahl]: stories about how hard it was
for them to stay the course, like to calmly

[Arvid Kahl]: build a business, trying to stay
calm when around the people around them were

[Arvid Kahl]: just energetically trying to distract
them or pull them away from entrepreneurship

[Arvid Kahl]: because they just didn't get it.
Like this week I had an interview, I just released

[Arvid Kahl]: it earlier today, with Dagobert
Renouf, the co-founder of Logology. He and

[Arvid Kahl]: his wife founded a logo creation
software as a service business.

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: And one of his puns or means that
he's been talking about on Twitter has been
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: And one of his puns or means that
he's been talking about on Twitter has been

[Arvid Kahl]: that his father-in-law has been
completely unsupportive and not understanding

[Arvid Kahl]: about why he and his wife would
ever build a business together when they both

[Arvid Kahl]: could just have regular careers.
that she's a designer, he's a software engineer,

[Arvid Kahl]: like they could work for corporate
and they would be fine for life. That's his

[Arvid Kahl]: perspective,

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: perspective,

[Arvid Kahl]: perspective,

[Arvid Kahl]: has been his perspective for a
while until he saw that it's kind of working

[Arvid Kahl]: out. But he shared this on my
podcast and I was like, yeah, this is something

[Arvid Kahl]: that probably every founder can
relate to because I personally have a very

[Arvid Kahl]: similar story in my life, early
life, even like not necessarily with Feat.

[Arvid Kahl]: Panda, the stuff that actually
worked out, but much earlier, like in 2013,

[Arvid Kahl]: 2012. when I kind of, I was still
in university, I was studying political science,

[Arvid Kahl]: but I always wanted to be an engineer,
I always wanted to code, I was coding on the

[Arvid Kahl]: side. And

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: I got this invite to San Francisco
for, like there was a C-funded company that

[Arvid Kahl]: found my GitHub and they wanted
me to kind of see if I could work for them

[Arvid Kahl]: as a remote employee from Germany,
but they wanted to meet me, so they flew me

[Arvid Kahl]: in or wanted to fly me in from
San Francisco. Even just that was something

[Arvid Kahl]: that my grandma at the time, who
had kind of the maternal role in my family,

[Arvid Kahl]: She didn't understand and didn't
support. Like she was like, no, you shouldn't

[Arvid Kahl]: do this. This is dangerous. This
is kind of risky. I think this feels like something

[Arvid Kahl]: that, you know, that's kind of,
that must be a scam. They invite you over,

[Arvid Kahl]: that's not right. I think that's
like, why would anybody pay for a ticket and

[Arvid Kahl]: you don't even know who they are?
And she just did not even understand this kind

[Arvid Kahl]: of founders taking a bet on a
potential employee.

[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.

[Arvid Kahl]: So it worked out. I flew there,
I had a great time. We came to an agreement.
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.

[Arvid Kahl]: So it worked out. I flew there,
I had a great time. We came to an agreement.

[Arvid Kahl]: I worked for them for two years,
and then it got burned out and everything exploded

[Arvid Kahl]: in my life. But that's a different
story for a different opportunity. But

[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.

[Arvid Kahl]: after that, I started building
tiny software businesses with my friends and
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.

[Arvid Kahl]: after that, I started building
tiny software businesses with my friends and

[Arvid Kahl]: peers. And again, she was like,
I don't know if this is the way you should

[Arvid Kahl]: be going. Like you could, you're
good at your job. You could just find a job

[Arvid Kahl]: with like some software business.
Right? You could go to Audi or another big

[Arvid Kahl]: German company and work in a software
department, right? And I was like, no, but

[Arvid Kahl]: I want to do this. And I then,
then I did this and these things failed. And

[Arvid Kahl]: she was like, yep, told you you
should go and get a job. And I just, I kind

[Arvid Kahl]: of listened to her. I started
getting into consulting with a bigger business

[Arvid Kahl]: and consulted for them as my big
fish main client. But over time, I just wanted

[Arvid Kahl]: to build more businesses.

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: And it took until we actually
had Feedback Panda, my girlfriend and I were
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: And it took until we actually
had Feedback Panda, my girlfriend and I were

[Arvid Kahl]: like building Feedback Panda and
showing her that this was now, um, like a $20,000

[Arvid Kahl]: a month business. for her to say,
well, okay, I guess it's fine. That was the

[Arvid Kahl]: situation. We built a SaaS business
to 20K MRR and that was okay, I guess this

[Arvid Kahl]: is all right. Took

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: is all right. Took

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: me only what, five, six years
to get her to this point. Super frustrating.
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: me only what, five, six years
to get her to this point. Super frustrating.

[Arvid Kahl]: And I think everybody who's been
going into solopreneurship or just entrepreneurship

[Arvid Kahl]: in general has a story like this.
I wonder if you have a story like this too.

[Tyler Tringas]: Um, I think

[Arvid Kahl]: Doesn't have to be family,
[Tyler Tringas]: Um, I think

[Arvid Kahl]: Doesn't have to be family,

[Tyler Tringas]: so.
[Arvid Kahl]: Doesn't have to be family,

[Tyler Tringas]: so.

[Arvid Kahl]: right? It could
[Tyler Tringas]: so.

[Arvid Kahl]: right? It could

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah,
[Arvid Kahl]: right? It could

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah,

[Arvid Kahl]: be anybody.
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah,

[Arvid Kahl]: be anybody.

[Tyler Tringas]: so I grew up in a family where
entrepreneurship was a little more normalized.

[Tyler Tringas]: My, you know, my stepdad was
sort of my head of household for most of my

[Tyler Tringas]: life, and he ran a guitar shop,
you know. So I think the the concept of being

[Tyler Tringas]: an entrepreneur was a little
more normalized within the family. So there

[Tyler Tringas]: wasn't that kind of constant
pressure to be like, why don't you get a job

[Tyler Tringas]: sort of thing. But I would
say,

[Tyler Tringas]: the elements that kind of resonate
with me in this are a little different, which

[Tyler Tringas]: are, first of all, just like
not necessarily, not having active pushback,

[Tyler Tringas]: but not really having a support
network, right? Like not having people within

[Tyler Tringas]: my community. So. When I like
my college friends and my, you know, first

[Tyler Tringas]: friends from after college
and stuff like that, like almost none of them

[Tyler Tringas]: were entrepreneurs. So I didn't
really have people that would push me in the

[Tyler Tringas]: right direction or that I could
sort of lean on in tough times necessarily.

[Tyler Tringas]: So it was sort of isolated
versus having, you know, kind of things pushing

[Tyler Tringas]: back against me. Um, and then,
you know, definitely like just in general.

[Tyler Tringas]: Feeling like. uh, in most social
situations that I didn't really have anything

[Tyler Tringas]: to empathize with people, right?
Like you're at, uh, you know, you're dating

[Tyler Tringas]: someone who has a normal job
and you go out with them and their friends

[Tyler Tringas]: and everybody's complaining
about, uh, you know, not having enough time

[Tyler Tringas]: off or, you know, like weird
stuff that's like no longer relevant feature

[Tyler Tringas]: of your life at all, and you
have nothing to say

[Arvid Kahl]: Right.

[Tyler Tringas]: on these topics. Um, you know,
this, that sort of isolation, I think is something
[Arvid Kahl]: Right.

[Tyler Tringas]: on these topics. Um, you know,
this, that sort of isolation, I think is something

[Tyler Tringas]: that I felt a lot, um, pretty
early on as an entrepreneur. And so. Yeah,

[Tyler Tringas]: I think we should talk about
it. I don't know if I have a specific example

[Tyler Tringas]: that comes to mind. It was
just like a very pervasive thing for quite

[Tyler Tringas]: a few years for me.

[Arvid Kahl]: Oh,

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: I think it's definitely specific
enough, particularly the thing with like going
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: I think it's definitely specific
enough, particularly the thing with like going

[Arvid Kahl]: out or going to any kind of social
event and being just of a completely different

[Arvid Kahl]: frame of mind, what even warrants
being discussed.

[Tyler Tringas]: Right.

[Arvid Kahl]: That's what I feel like when I
was at a family thing a couple days ago and

[Arvid Kahl]: it was really nice and when family
hangs out, it's always enjoyable. But even

[Arvid Kahl]: getting to a topic of discussion
that I find interesting. in terms of like,

[Arvid Kahl]: you know, I want to talk about
AI, or I want to talk about like entrepreneurship,

[Arvid Kahl]: I want to talk about like building
something cool or cool projects. But people

[Arvid Kahl]: don't necessarily find these things
as interesting as I do, which kind

[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.
[Arvid Kahl]: don't necessarily find these things
as interesting as I do, which kind

[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.

[Arvid Kahl]: of precludes me from even getting
to a point where I can contribute meaningfully
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.

[Arvid Kahl]: of precludes me from even getting
to a point where I can contribute meaningfully

[Arvid Kahl]: to a conversation. Because the
other topics, I'm not that much into sports,

[Arvid Kahl]: I'm not that much

[Tyler Tringas]: Thank
[Arvid Kahl]: I'm not that much

[Tyler Tringas]: Thank

[Arvid Kahl]: into,
[Tyler Tringas]: Thank

[Arvid Kahl]: into,

[Tyler Tringas]: you.
[Arvid Kahl]: into,

[Tyler Tringas]: you.

[Arvid Kahl]: you know, vacations or whatnot,
these these topics that normal people normally

[Arvid Kahl]: talk about,

[Tyler Tringas]: I think
[Arvid Kahl]: talk about,

[Tyler Tringas]: I think

[Arvid Kahl]: right?
[Tyler Tringas]: I think

[Arvid Kahl]: right?

[Tyler Tringas]: these
[Arvid Kahl]: right?

[Tyler Tringas]: these

[Arvid Kahl]: It's
[Tyler Tringas]: these

[Arvid Kahl]: It's

[Tyler Tringas]: are
[Arvid Kahl]: It's

[Tyler Tringas]: are

[Arvid Kahl]: just
[Tyler Tringas]: are

[Arvid Kahl]: just

[Tyler Tringas]: more
[Arvid Kahl]: just

[Tyler Tringas]: more

[Arvid Kahl]: that
[Tyler Tringas]: more

[Arvid Kahl]: that

[Tyler Tringas]: the hazards of being a nerd
versus being an entrepreneur, which I identify
[Arvid Kahl]: that

[Tyler Tringas]: the hazards of being a nerd
versus being an entrepreneur, which I identify

[Arvid Kahl]: But wait,
[Tyler Tringas]: the hazards of being a nerd
versus being an entrepreneur, which I identify

[Arvid Kahl]: But wait,

[Tyler Tringas]: by the
[Arvid Kahl]: But wait,

[Tyler Tringas]: by the

[Arvid Kahl]: what's,

[Tyler Tringas]: way.
[Arvid Kahl]: what's,

[Tyler Tringas]: way.

[Arvid Kahl]: isn't that the same? Like, isn't
like one, like there's a big Venn diagram and

[Arvid Kahl]: I think like entrepreneurs like
right dab in the middle of,

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, nerdy
[Arvid Kahl]: I think like entrepreneurs like
right dab in the middle of,

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, nerdy

[Arvid Kahl]: of the
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, nerdy

[Arvid Kahl]: of the

[Tyler Tringas]: on

[Arvid Kahl]: nerd
[Tyler Tringas]: on

[Arvid Kahl]: nerd

[Tyler Tringas]: your
[Arvid Kahl]: nerd

[Tyler Tringas]: your

[Arvid Kahl]: thing.
[Tyler Tringas]: your

[Tyler Tringas]: your

[Tyler Tringas]: very challenging socially.

[Arvid Kahl]: Well, I honestly, I mean, I'm
great. I'm great among family and we always

[Arvid Kahl]: have nice chats. And even this
time we did get to talk about chat chipperity

[Arvid Kahl]: because a couple of people in
the family work in marketing and we had this

[Arvid Kahl]: whole conversation about, funny
enough, we actually had a conversation that

[Arvid Kahl]: went, that went into entrepreneurship
because we kind of talked about them with their

[Arvid Kahl]: career path and me, like how I
source my finances, right? Where I find my

[Arvid Kahl]: sponsors. Then we got into like
how sponsorship evolved over time. people working

[Arvid Kahl]: in an ad agency, obviously they're
interested to see how it works on the ground

[Arvid Kahl]: for a creator. Like how I

[Tyler Tringas]: Mmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: for a creator. Like how I

[Tyler Tringas]: Mmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: source my sponsors, how they could
potentially connect with more people like me.

[Arvid Kahl]: And it was an interesting conversation
just about the different perspectives that

[Arvid Kahl]: you have from an agency perspective
on how to place advertisement and sponsorships

[Arvid Kahl]: and what I care about as a creator
and what I would never do, what is normal to

[Arvid Kahl]: them. Like it was a nice conversation
in the overlap of our fields. That was cool.

[Arvid Kahl]: But that rarely happens. And it's
just a few people that work in jobs that are

[Arvid Kahl]: even adjacent to what I'm doing,
because most people have normal jobs, like

[Arvid Kahl]: plumber or nurse. What am I going
to say? Build in public your next plumbing

[Arvid Kahl]: project? It's going to be far
cry for me to even get to a conversational

[Arvid Kahl]: topic there. So those situations,
always enjoyable, but never really a part where

[Arvid Kahl]: I feel I can contribute a lot.
And that puts some distance in there, I feel.

[Arvid Kahl]: That's just what it is. We chose
this occupation and with it comes an interest

[Arvid Kahl]: for certain things and a dismissal
of others. It's just what it is. But I feel

[Arvid Kahl]: it does show, at least for me,
where our priorities lie and what we completely

[Arvid Kahl]: ignore as entrepreneurs. What
you said, these conversations about, oh, my

[Arvid Kahl]: boss, or I wish there was more
paid vacation. What is an entrepreneur going

[Arvid Kahl]: to say? I wish

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm.

[Arvid Kahl]: there
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm.

[Arvid Kahl]: there

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm.
[Arvid Kahl]: there

[Arvid Kahl]: there

[Arvid Kahl]: was any vacation at all, ever.
It feels like it's just a different different

[Arvid Kahl]: kind of perspective to take on
conversations. But maybe that is the happy

[Arvid Kahl]: kind of result of us being somewhat
isolated. But I feel there's a lot of mental

[Arvid Kahl]: health pressure on people to still

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: health pressure on people to still

[Arvid Kahl]: perform and to still to still
maintain these bonds, particularly when it

[Arvid Kahl]: comes to good friends or family
or your significant other. Like the amounts

[Arvid Kahl]: of times I've been listening to
a Star Trek podcast. Let me just like throw

[Arvid Kahl]: it all out there, because like
if we're nerding out my just as well. It's

[Arvid Kahl]: called The Greatest Generation,
and it has two male co-hosts that worked in

[Arvid Kahl]: the entertainment industry. They're
coming from videography or directing and kind

[Arvid Kahl]: of stuff. And they now go through
the old Star Trek The Next Generation episodes,

[Arvid Kahl]: like one by one, and just comment
them in a funny way. I highly recommend listening

[Arvid Kahl]: to it. But what they always talk
about is how their wives are just kind of embarrassed

[Arvid Kahl]: about them running a Star Trek
podcast. And you know, like whenever they're

[Arvid Kahl]: out in public and now some of
they have a lot of listeners, listeners come

[Arvid Kahl]: up to them and want like an autograph
or a photo, they're kind of embarrassed about

[Arvid Kahl]: that. And I was like, this is
so sad. I guess it's so unfortunate that somebody's

[Arvid Kahl]: joy that also makes them money
because they have a podcast with like, now

[Arvid Kahl]: I guess hundreds of thousands
of monthly listeners and yet still their partners

[Arvid Kahl]: in life feel disconnected enough
to not even care about it much or embarrassed

[Arvid Kahl]: that. this person that they share
their life with is doing this as a profession.

[Arvid Kahl]: And I should say, like their partners
are, I think one of them is a lawyer and the

[Arvid Kahl]: other one also has a pretty high
paid job. So there's this kind of discrepancy,

[Arvid Kahl]: high paid lawyer, start with nerd
on a podcast, right? This seems to be a problem

[Arvid Kahl]: for people. And I was like, why?
This is so sad, right?

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, I'm not a couples counselor,
but that that that seems like a

[Arvid Kahl]: Hahaha

[Tyler Tringas]: pretty bad dynamic in the inner
relationship.
[Arvid Kahl]: Hahaha

[Tyler Tringas]: pretty bad dynamic in the inner
relationship.

[Arvid Kahl]: Yep. Yeah.
[Tyler Tringas]: pretty bad dynamic in the inner
relationship.

[Tyler Tringas]: pretty bad dynamic in the inner
relationship.

[Tyler Tringas]: Did you feel like you had to
defend entrepreneurship, you know, to to your

[Tyler Tringas]: family or or friends or anything
like that? Did you ever find yourself sort

[Tyler Tringas]: of needing to? You know, I
mean, you can sort of just like either shrug

[Tyler Tringas]: it off, but sometimes you might
feel the need to engage and sort of make the

[Tyler Tringas]: case for it. Did you find that?

[Arvid Kahl]: again, mostly with my grandma,
because she was just she was in such a protective

[Arvid Kahl]: role that anything that had more
risk than gainful employment, like risk from

[Arvid Kahl]: a perspective of somebody who's
been in gainful employment all through her

[Arvid Kahl]: life, right?

[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: life, right?

[Arvid Kahl]: life, right?

[Arvid Kahl]: That's the kind of default frame
that she had on this, anything that was more

[Arvid Kahl]: risky. And we can argue that entrepreneurship
is risky in a different way, you know, unlimited

[Arvid Kahl]: upside, unlimited downside compared
to limited upside and limited downside for

[Arvid Kahl]: employment and If you only have
one employer, you have kind of platform risk,

[Arvid Kahl]: platform

[Arvid Kahl]: dependency risk, but
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah,

[Arvid Kahl]: dependency risk, but

[Tyler Tringas]: I would think

[Arvid Kahl]: you know.
[Tyler Tringas]: I would think

[Arvid Kahl]: you know.

[Tyler Tringas]: I would question the limited
downside side of things. But yes, I think

[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah,
[Tyler Tringas]: I would question the limited
downside side of things. But yes, I think

[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah,

[Tyler Tringas]: it's
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah,

[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah,

[Arvid Kahl]: exactly.

[Tyler Tringas]: limited downside too. But yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: That's right. There's a common
narrative, right? And that's kind of what I

[Arvid Kahl]: was trying to describe with the
upside-down side thing.

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: That narrative is breaking apart
in the reality that we live in. Because if
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: That narrative is breaking apart
in the reality that we live in. Because if

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: That narrative is breaking apart
in the reality that we live in. Because if

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: you get fired today, try find
a job and see how long your paycheck-to-paycheck
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: you get fired today, try find
a job and see how long your paycheck-to-paycheck

[Arvid Kahl]: life can be sustained if you don't
get a paycheck, right? And it's not your fault

[Arvid Kahl]: necessarily as an employee that
this is the reality in which we live in. But

[Arvid Kahl]: to think that this is safe is
probably a misconception. So I had to argue

[Arvid Kahl]: these kinds of things to her,
which is like talk to like an 86 year old woman

[Arvid Kahl]: about your perspective as a 20
year old while she has been living in multiple

[Arvid Kahl]: different countries. Like we came
from East Germany, doesn't exist anymore than

[Arvid Kahl]: had to be in Germany and she had
a career there. So she's been through stuff

[Arvid Kahl]: and her perspective is what I
know is good and what I can teach this person

[Arvid Kahl]: and what I can help them accomplish
is also good. So can't blame it, but I did

[Arvid Kahl]: have to defend it. And one other
thing, one other probably more relatable thing

[Arvid Kahl]: for most, like I had to defend
my entrepreneurial aspirations to my peers

[Arvid Kahl]: at the last job that I was working
in. So

[Tyler Tringas]: Thank

[Arvid Kahl]: when
[Tyler Tringas]: Thank

[Arvid Kahl]: when

[Tyler Tringas]: you.
[Arvid Kahl]: when

[Tyler Tringas]: you.

[Arvid Kahl]: I was building Feedback Panda,
I kind of did it on the side while I was having

[Arvid Kahl]: a full salaried 40 hour a week
software engineering position in Hamburg. Like

[Arvid Kahl]: there's this whole story that
I often tell is like. me commuting from Berlin

[Arvid Kahl]: to Hamburg allowed me to listen
to all these podcasts and read all these books,

[Arvid Kahl]: including your ebook and that
kind of stuff to figure out how I wanted to

[Arvid Kahl]: build my next business. All this
commute back and forth gave me so much time.

[Arvid Kahl]: So when I was in Hamburg working
40 hours a week and then took some time, like

[Arvid Kahl]: after working, I still stayed
in the office and coded on my own project.

[Arvid Kahl]: People just didn't really get
it. They were like, why are you doing this?

[Arvid Kahl]: You already have a job. The hardest
part about all this was when I then quit because

[Arvid Kahl]: our business already went somewhere
and I wanted to focus on something else. They

[Arvid Kahl]: felt almost betrayed. Like it
had this kind of notion of hey you were one

[Arvid Kahl]: of us and now you're kind of not
anymore.

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: What's going on? This must be
like a negative thing or this must be some
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: What's going on? This must be
like a negative thing or this must be some

[Arvid Kahl]: kind of attack. It was pretty
strange because these were people that I really

[Arvid Kahl]: went well with until I told them
that I didn't want to be an employee anymore.

[Tyler Tringas]: it.

[Arvid Kahl]: Like I had mental health reasons
there as well. I felt like overwhelmed and

[Arvid Kahl]: I didn't want to do this. And
you know, my grandma had just died around that

[Arvid Kahl]: time. So there was that as well.
There was just so much animosity that I was

[Arvid Kahl]: exposed to, which was really unfortunate
because I didn't expect it from people who

[Arvid Kahl]: were just like me. It turns out
they were not necessarily like me. They were

[Arvid Kahl]: just compatible on one level,
but very incompatible on another. So yes, I

[Arvid Kahl]: did have to defend it. And I honestly,
I just defended it by doing it. and not caring

[Arvid Kahl]: about what other people said.

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, I think I would encourage
other folks and I wonder if this resonates

[Tyler Tringas]: with you, but I think you just
have to drop the idea of defending it. I just

[Tyler Tringas]: think like, you know, it's
one of those things where people are going

[Tyler Tringas]: to get it or not and, you know,
all the energy that you would put into trying

[Tyler Tringas]: to convince that person in
your life. Um, that it's, you know, a good

[Tyler Tringas]: idea. You should just put into
yourself and basically, you know, recognizing

[Tyler Tringas]: that like, you're just, you're
probably not going to convince them and you

[Tyler Tringas]: just need to kind of reconcile
that and, and, you know, Just go for it. Right.

[Tyler Tringas]: Like, I just don't think that
a lot of upside, I think this is maybe potentially

[Tyler Tringas]: challenging when it's specifically
a partner slash like spouse. That's probably

[Tyler Tringas]: like the one area where you
really do need to. get some buy in, I think

[Tyler Tringas]: with your family, like unless,
I don't know, unless they're financing your

[Tyler Tringas]: lifestyle or something like
that, you probably just have to accept the

[Tyler Tringas]: fact that they're not going
to get it until you're successful, and then

[Tyler Tringas]: they're going to get it. And
like, that's that, like that's how it's going

[Tyler Tringas]: to play out. That's how almost
everyone that I know that's gone through that

[Tyler Tringas]: sort of situation, like, they
don't get it, they don't get it. And then as

[Tyler Tringas]: soon as you're like, tangibly
succeeding, they get it right away. They're

[Tyler Tringas]: like, Oh, that's cool. Great.
You know, and like, there's really no shortcut

[Tyler Tringas]: to that process. Um, I wonder
actually if it's a bit more challenging with,

[Tyler Tringas]: uh, with a partner. I've never
really had to go through that process at the

[Tyler Tringas]: early days. Um,

[Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm.
[Tyler Tringas]: early days. Um,

[Tyler Tringas]: early days. Um,

[Tyler Tringas]: I guess did, did you, so, so,
you know, I only had a serious partner in my

[Tyler Tringas]: life after, you know, I was
single when I started, you know, when I quit

[Tyler Tringas]: my job and started to become
an entrepreneur and my business was fairly

[Tyler Tringas]: successful. before I had a
serious life partner along that journey. So

[Tyler Tringas]: what about you? Did you have
a partner at the early days of this stuff?

[Tyler Tringas]: Or was that a thing

[Arvid Kahl]: So
[Tyler Tringas]: Or was that a thing

[Arvid Kahl]: So

[Tyler Tringas]: you had to do?
[Arvid Kahl]: So

[Tyler Tringas]: you had to do?

[Arvid Kahl]: yeah, like all the things where
I failed, I didn't have a partner at all. And

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: yeah, like all the things where
I failed, I didn't have a partner at all. And

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: the thing where I succeeded, I
met Danielle, my co-founder and life partner
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: the thing where I succeeded, I
met Danielle, my co-founder and life partner

[Arvid Kahl]: is in this very building that
I'm recording

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.
[Arvid Kahl]: is in this very building that
I'm recording

[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: in right now. I met her in 2015.
[Tyler Tringas]: Mm-hmm.

[Arvid Kahl]: in right now. I met her in 2015.

[Tyler Tringas]: Okay.

[Arvid Kahl]: We started the business in 2017
together. So I was still a fully set and salaried
[Tyler Tringas]: Okay.

[Arvid Kahl]: We started the business in 2017
together. So I was still a fully set and salaried

[Arvid Kahl]: engineer at the time, even like
working half remotely. So I was in Hamburg

[Arvid Kahl]: commuting back and forth for like
half of my week. So it was a... a relationship

[Arvid Kahl]: that itself was already pretty
tested from the early days on right, you're

[Arvid Kahl]: your partner and some sometimes
there's sometimes you're you're gone, you're

[Arvid Kahl]: gonna have a long distance relationship
several days a week. So we had a lot of stuff

[Arvid Kahl]: compressed into a very early timeframe
there. And then we started the business together

[Arvid Kahl]: in 17. We sold it in 2019. And
we moved to Canada two years later in 2021.

[Arvid Kahl]: So that that's kind of the story
of our life together. So yeah,

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: I was just we built this together.
So she was
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: I was just we built this together.
So she was

[Tyler Tringas]: Right.
[Arvid Kahl]: I was just we built this together.
So she was

[Tyler Tringas]: Right.

[Arvid Kahl]: compatible in the sense that she
actually also wanted to build it.
[Tyler Tringas]: Right.

[Arvid Kahl]: compatible in the sense that she
actually also wanted to build it.

[Tyler Tringas]: Right, maybe this would be
something fun to discuss on Twitter after we

[Tyler Tringas]: publish this to

[Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm.

[Tyler Tringas]: see you know if folks could
share some stories of having to really get
[Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm.

[Tyler Tringas]: see you know if folks could
share some stories of having to really get

[Tyler Tringas]: buy-in maybe from a you know
default skeptical Partner or spouse and and

[Tyler Tringas]: kind of hear about that because
I think that would be really interesting to

[Tyler Tringas]: hear how folks Navigated that
that's kind of like one version where you can't

[Tyler Tringas]: just be like well You'll see
you know and then just go three years without

[Tyler Tringas]: getting support

[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah.
[Tyler Tringas]: getting support

[Tyler Tringas]: getting support

[Tyler Tringas]: buy-in from it I wonder if
this resonates with you as well. It's kind

[Tyler Tringas]: of like a variation of this,
which is feeling behind your peers on more

[Tyler Tringas]: of a traditional path, right?
So you're an entrepreneur, maybe you haven't

[Tyler Tringas]: quite gotten the financial
success yet, and a small version might be you

[Tyler Tringas]: see some article in... MSN
money or whatever that's like, here's how much

[Tyler Tringas]: you should have saved by the
time your ex

[Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm.
[Tyler Tringas]: you should have saved by the
time your ex

[Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm.

[Tyler Tringas]: years old, you're like, whoa,
I don't have anywhere near that much saved
[Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm.

[Tyler Tringas]: years old, you're like, whoa,
I don't have anywhere near that much saved

[Tyler Tringas]: because I've been building
equity in this business that's not successful

[Tyler Tringas]: yet. And maybe then more like
tangible milestones, right? Maybe people are

[Tyler Tringas]: buying houses or maybe they're
having kids and all this kind of stuff that

[Tyler Tringas]: you feel like you can't necessarily
financially do because you're still in the

[Tyler Tringas]: trenches of entrepreneurship.
Did you feel any of that at all?

[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah, I'm thinking about it. I
had friends certainly that had kids and had

[Arvid Kahl]: jobs and that kind of stuff. But
I always knew that I don't need to compare

[Arvid Kahl]: myself to people whose lives I
don't necessarily want to live. And this is

[Arvid Kahl]: no a hidden dig at my friends,
obviously, because they're my friends. But

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: the choices that they made were
theirs to make and not necessarily mine. So

[Arvid Kahl]: I don't think I compared my lifestyle
with with them much. But I always felt that

[Arvid Kahl]: the security that some people
had financially by just having been around

[Arvid Kahl]: and having already understood
that's, that's an important part too, I'm going

[Arvid Kahl]: to get to this in a second, how
to invest, what to invest, like have their

[Arvid Kahl]: employer pay half of whatever
contribution they may have and build equity

[Arvid Kahl]: in, in the market or in money
markets or whatever over, over their, um, their

[Arvid Kahl]: work lifetime. That was something
that I was even just kind of exposed to

[Tyler Tringas]: Hmm

[Arvid Kahl]: late in life. I didn't even have
a frame of reference to be kind of jealous

[Arvid Kahl]: or comparing myself to because

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah
[Arvid Kahl]: or comparing myself to because

[Arvid Kahl]: I didn't even know that that was
an option. Again, my grandma, she's great,

[Arvid Kahl]: but she had very strong opinions
about what investment looks like or what savings

[Arvid Kahl]: look like. For her, that was like
put money in a savings account every now and

[Arvid Kahl]: then and that's it. Get like the
rates that whatever the bank pays you. Because

[Arvid Kahl]: again, East Germany, different
story, her whole life was structured in a certain

[Arvid Kahl]: way and she kind of taught that.
I had to do a lot of unlearning as you can

[Arvid Kahl]: probably tell.

[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.

[Arvid Kahl]: from just the stuff that I've
been kind of educated with as I grew up in
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.

[Arvid Kahl]: from just the stuff that I've
been kind of educated with as I grew up in

[Arvid Kahl]: that space. And she was burned,
I think, by the local credit union style bank,

[Arvid Kahl]: investing their money into really,
really bad mutual funds that never made any

[Arvid Kahl]: money. So they kind of lost a
lot of money on this. So any investment into

[Arvid Kahl]: anything in the market was a no
go for her. That was how it was financially

[Arvid Kahl]: educated.

[Tyler Tringas]: Whoa.

[Arvid Kahl]: Can you imagine? Yeah, right?
So it's... I think I was 33 or 34 when I first
[Tyler Tringas]: Whoa.

[Arvid Kahl]: Can you imagine? Yeah, right?
So it's... I think I was 33 or 34 when I first

[Arvid Kahl]: in that business in Hamburg was
exposed to a fellow developer who talked about

[Arvid Kahl]: investing in the stock market
and ETFs and that kind of stuff and how this

[Arvid Kahl]: is actually a much saner approach
than buying into heavily into mutual funds

[Arvid Kahl]: or that kind of stuff that your
bank tries to push on you. Any sane person

[Arvid Kahl]: looking at this from the outside
was like, why are they trying to sell me this?

[Arvid Kahl]: Like, obviously there's more in
that for them than for me. So That education

[Arvid Kahl]: came at a super late part in my
life. And ever since then, I've been working

[Arvid Kahl]: on getting to that. But it's not
because of comparison with my peers, it's because

[Arvid Kahl]: of not being educated in that
space at all. Honestly, I think the first book

[Arvid Kahl]: that I ever read that explained
this to me more clearly was Tony Robbins, like

[Arvid Kahl]: Money Master the Game. Like it's
not necessarily the best book about finances,

[Tyler Tringas]: I gotta get
[Arvid Kahl]: Money Master the Game. Like it's
not necessarily the best book about finances,

[Tyler Tringas]: I gotta get

[Arvid Kahl]: but

[Tyler Tringas]: on board somehow, you know?
[Arvid Kahl]: but

[Tyler Tringas]: on board somehow, you know?

[Arvid Kahl]: it showed me a path beyond. like
just putting some money in some bank account

[Arvid Kahl]: and getting like minus 3% a year
because the economy tech. So it's, but for

[Arvid Kahl]: me, I did feel behind in just
the sense of security that I had in my life,

[Arvid Kahl]: which was one of the reasons why
we actually sold the business when we sold

[Arvid Kahl]: it, because

[Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh.
[Arvid Kahl]: it, because

[Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh.

[Arvid Kahl]: we had understood that the equity
we had in this business at that point making
[Tyler Tringas]: Uh huh.

[Arvid Kahl]: we had understood that the equity
we had in this business at that point making

[Arvid Kahl]: 600K in ARR, so it was substantial
already. It was technically by all just...

[Arvid Kahl]: guesses of how much something
could be worth a million dollar business, which

[Arvid Kahl]: it then turned out to be in the
end when we sold it. But we we both had nothing

[Arvid Kahl]: else. Like we had no savings really,
other than the weird stuff in our bank, which

[Arvid Kahl]: was like a couple thousand bucks.
We had a paycheck to paycheck kind of life

[Arvid Kahl]: because we were living in Berlin,
the middle of a big city, which is expensive

[Arvid Kahl]: and I

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: and I

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: had a lot of expenses like traveling
back and forth, even though the company helped
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: had a lot of expenses like traveling
back and forth, even though the company helped

[Arvid Kahl]: me with this, it was never free,
right? And... we understood that, wow, this

[Arvid Kahl]: is the only thing that's valuable
and it's gigantically valuable in comparison

[Arvid Kahl]: to what else we have. If we lose
this business because of, you know, the business

[Arvid Kahl]: implodes because of the market
or some regulation, which funny enough it did

[Arvid Kahl]: like a couple months ago, right?
China introduced some weird regulation that

[Arvid Kahl]: makes it impossible for a person
to teach English online anymore without living

[Arvid Kahl]: in China itself. So Feedback Panda,
the business that we built, It doesn't exist

[Arvid Kahl]: anymore for that reason. Like,

[Tyler Tringas]: Okay.
[Arvid Kahl]: anymore for that reason. Like,

[Tyler Tringas]: Okay.

[Arvid Kahl]: SureSprift had to just shut it
down because there was nobody paying money
[Tyler Tringas]: Okay.

[Arvid Kahl]: SureSprift had to just shut it
down because there was nobody paying money

[Arvid Kahl]: anymore because they couldn't
do the work that we

[Tyler Tringas]: All
[Arvid Kahl]: anymore because they couldn't
do the work that we

[Tyler Tringas]: All

[Arvid Kahl]: helped them with. It's unfortunate
[Tyler Tringas]: All

[Arvid Kahl]: helped them with. It's unfortunate

[Tyler Tringas]: right.
[Arvid Kahl]: helped them with. It's unfortunate

[Arvid Kahl]: helped them with. It's unfortunate

[Arvid Kahl]: that it happened, and I'm kind
of glad it didn't happen to us. It happened

[Arvid Kahl]: to a company that could handle
such a financial loss, right?

[Tyler Tringas]: Right.

[Arvid Kahl]: Like, if that would have been
us, everything we built over years would have
[Tyler Tringas]: Right.

[Tyler Tringas]: Right.

[Arvid Kahl]: been lost at that point.
[Tyler Tringas]: Right.

[Arvid Kahl]: been lost at that point.

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: been lost at that point.

[Arvid Kahl]: been lost at that point.

[Arvid Kahl]: which is why I was super stressed
about it, had like the kind of, oh, the bus

[Arvid Kahl]: factor is incredibly high and
it's so undiversified, we need to diversify

[Arvid Kahl]: our investments. Again, something
I had never known about before, but now I knew

[Arvid Kahl]: and now I understood because I
had people who work smart about investments

[Arvid Kahl]: tell me about this as well. So
that's the thing that I felt I would need to

[Arvid Kahl]: catch up, just securing my own
life by diversifying my investments. Hence

[Arvid Kahl]: we sold the business. and got
invested into fine funds such as the calm company

[Arvid Kahl]: fund, for example, right? Like

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: it all kind of plays into this
for me, like investing in your fund was one
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: it all kind of plays into this
for me, like investing in your fund was one

[Arvid Kahl]: of the things I did to diversify.
So

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: yeah, you know, so yes, I did
feel behind and I needed to catch up.

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah, yeah, I think I felt
some of that too. I think some things that

[Tyler Tringas]: resonated for me Over the years
that kind of helped me maintain a little more

[Tyler Tringas]: kind of calm about that because
it is easy to sort of feel behind So the first

[Tyler Tringas]: one that resonated for me was
leaning into some of the stuff that you can

[Tyler Tringas]: do as an entrepreneur that
you couldn't do with a job, right so like I

[Tyler Tringas]: think it can be really tough
to be just like in exactly the same sort of

[Tyler Tringas]: position as your peers, let's
say your peers from college or something like

[Tyler Tringas]: that. Like you're living in
the same cities, in the same neighborhoods,

[Tyler Tringas]: trying to buy the same houses,
trying to do the same activities, you know,

[Tyler Tringas]: all this kind of stuff, except
you're the like struggling entrepreneur and

[Tyler Tringas]: they're the like successful
corporate person. That sounds like setting

[Tyler Tringas]: yourself up for like a really
difficult time mentally. So I think like one

[Tyler Tringas]: thing that comes to mind is
this overlap between a lot of entrepreneurs

[Tyler Tringas]: becoming digital nomads. And
I'm not saying like every entrepreneur should

[Tyler Tringas]: become digital nomads, but
you know, you have this like kind of sort of

[Tyler Tringas]: judo way of turning around
some of the negatives into a positive. Like,

[Tyler Tringas]: yes, you have to work a lot.
And yes, you maybe don't have as much disposable

[Tyler Tringas]: income, you know, month over
month, if you kind of graph it. But you do

[Tyler Tringas]: have a lot more flexibility
in terms of where you are. Right. And so you

[Tyler Tringas]: can sort of lean into, well,
I can go live in Bali for six months. And that's

[Tyler Tringas]: pretty cool. You know, and
so there's like a, um, there's an upside to

[Tyler Tringas]: being an entrepreneur as well.
And so I think kind of looking for, you know,

[Tyler Tringas]: those opportunities to, um,
you know, to take advantage of some of the

[Tyler Tringas]: things that are unlocked by
being an entrepreneur, mainly the ability to

[Tyler Tringas]: travel, the ability to work
remotely, the ability to. frankly, you can

[Tyler Tringas]: take more time off, right?
You know, if you're able to do that, right?

[Tyler Tringas]: If you get the business to
some level where that's possible, and sometimes

[Arvid Kahl]: Mm-hmm.
[Tyler Tringas]: If you get the business to
some level where that's possible, and sometimes

[Tyler Tringas]: If you get the business to
some level where that's possible, and sometimes

[Tyler Tringas]: that's a lot sooner than you
think, you know, the capacity to take six straight

[Tyler Tringas]: weeks off, which is basically
impossible for, you know, anybody in a corporate

[Tyler Tringas]: job. So I think I definitely
leaned into that heavily, and that helped me

[Tyler Tringas]: a lot. with the early days
of challenging, it was like, okay, I'm pretty

[Tyler Tringas]: much broke. I have like no
money, you know, like very minimal amount coming

[Tyler Tringas]: in, very way behind on where
I should be on savings, but I get to travel

[Tyler Tringas]: the world. I went to like 40
countries. I lived out of a backpack. I did

[Tyler Tringas]: all this cool stuff, you know.
So it was like, even if I kind of finish this

[Tyler Tringas]: and none of these businesses
work, I actually still won't regret this period

[Tyler Tringas]: of time. Like I'll have less
money than my peers, but I will have so many

[Tyler Tringas]: incredible experiences that
Like it'll feel like a pretty good investment.

[Tyler Tringas]: I think overall so that was
like one that was pretty useful I'm gonna say

[Tyler Tringas]: I think Another thing that's
kind of nice and I'm curious if this kind of

[Tyler Tringas]: resonates for you as well,
but I have found that Entrepreneurship really

[Tyler Tringas]: helps me avoid the hedonic
treadmill and the life inflation aspect Right?

[Tyler Tringas]: So like, you know, your income
and your savings are these numerical numbers,

[Tyler Tringas]: but they are also relative
to how much you spend. Right. And so the sort

[Tyler Tringas]: of lumpiness of the cash flows
of entrepreneurship, the fact that they're

[Tyler Tringas]: not that reliable, but when
they do come, they come in like generally like

[Tyler Tringas]: very large chunks has kind
of helped me avoid the the constant, you know,

[Tyler Tringas]: okay, you get this raise and
then you raise your spending by exactly the

[Tyler Tringas]: same amount. And so you get
this point where you're really on this treadmill

[Tyler Tringas]: that's turned up to 11 and
you have to continue making this very high

[Tyler Tringas]: salary just to sort of stay
in place because your cost basis is so high.

[Tyler Tringas]: I think one nice thing that
entrepreneurship does is it forces you to keep

[Tyler Tringas]: that level low. And there's
a benefit to that, which is that you have so

[Tyler Tringas]: much more flexibility in your
life. Whether or not it's other entrepreneurial

[Tyler Tringas]: ventures or other things like
that, I think a source of a lot of unhappiness

[Tyler Tringas]: in middle age for a lot of
folks is this hedonic treadmill where, yeah,

[Tyler Tringas]: they've had nice steady success
and now their base level of existence is they

[Tyler Tringas]: need to make $500,000, $600,000
a year just to stay in place. That means they

[Tyler Tringas]: can absolutely never take a
year off and go and try to write a book or

[Tyler Tringas]: try to. do some experiment
or start a company or whatever. And so, I wanna

[Tyler Tringas]: encourage folks to appreciate
that upside that even though it feels kind

[Tyler Tringas]: of limiting in the moment that
you wish you had a little more disposable income,

[Tyler Tringas]: that dynamic is actually going
to be a source of, I think pretty substantial

[Tyler Tringas]: happiness at like a decade
long time scale. And so, just kind of focusing

[Tyler Tringas]: on that I think is valuable.

[Arvid Kahl]: I really appreciate that because
I feel the same way. I honestly like most people

[Arvid Kahl]: when I talked to them about the
sale, the exit of the business, they asked

[Arvid Kahl]: me, so what did you buy? Right?
There's always this this big

[Tyler Tringas]: No.
[Arvid Kahl]: me, so what did you buy? Right?
There's always this this big

[Arvid Kahl]: me, so what did you buy? Right?
There's always this this big

[Arvid Kahl]: focus on money. And I was like,
I got a MacBook Pro, I think

[Tyler Tringas]: Yes.
[Arvid Kahl]: focus on money. And I was like,
I got a MacBook Pro, I think

[Tyler Tringas]: Yes.

[Arvid Kahl]: I got a new computer so I could
write better or I could write in one room and

[Arvid Kahl]: watch videos in the other. That
was like my leveling up at that point. And

[Arvid Kahl]: it has felt like this ever since
because I think you're on to something here

[Arvid Kahl]: with the lack of reliable numbers
that you see growing every month. I just did

[Arvid Kahl]: my taxes. So it was tax season
here in Canada, like until I think the 30th

[Arvid Kahl]: of April is that last tax day.
And obviously that meant I did my taxes on

[Arvid Kahl]: the 30th of April.

[Tyler Tringas]: PINWRD.

[Arvid Kahl]: And I had to, I pulled all the
data from the business together and something
[Tyler Tringas]: PINWRD.

[Arvid Kahl]: And I had to, I pulled all the
data from the business together and something

[Arvid Kahl]: I didn't notice in 2022, this
was a six-figure business. I did not notice.

[Tyler Tringas]: See you.
[Arvid Kahl]: I didn't notice in 2022, this
was a six-figure business. I did not notice.

[Arvid Kahl]: I didn't notice in 2022, this
was a six-figure business. I did not notice.

[Arvid Kahl]: I was not aware of the fact that
all my media business is now actually. six

[Arvid Kahl]: figure business and I saw this
on the text sheet because with that number

[Arvid Kahl]: comes an equally high tax payment
that you have to pay and Expenses were manageable

[Arvid Kahl]: all that kind of stuff it was
very interesting to see but the lump thing

[Arvid Kahl]: that the fact that it's distributed
over so many ways and I think every month I

[Arvid Kahl]: have like 30 different items on
my just where money comes in because Amazon

[Arvid Kahl]: has like 12 different locations
where the payments for the books come in and

[Arvid Kahl]: then every other store pays me
through some weird methods somewhere else and
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: then every other store pays me
through some weird methods somewhere else and

[Arvid Kahl]: then some goes to PayPal and Gumroad
is here and Podia was there and there's Udemy

[Arvid Kahl]: and there's Skillshare. All these
different things just pay random things at

[Arvid Kahl]: random times so you don't really
see this big monthly up and down. You just

[Arvid Kahl]: really see this trickle in and
some random capacity. So you develop this.

[Arvid Kahl]: I can only spend this much this
month because you know, haven't seen much money

[Arvid Kahl]: for a couple months. Let's just
see. Let's just be smart about it. So it surprised

[Arvid Kahl]: me to see how much money actually
came in. but also how much I kept because,

[Arvid Kahl]: you know, if I don't see it come
in, I don't see it, I don't spend it, which

[Arvid Kahl]: is great. And I think this is
a consequence of having had this behavior where

[Arvid Kahl]: no money was coming in in the
past. It just sounds like the worst humble

[Arvid Kahl]: bag in history, but the idea is
I think I've always had this, let's just be

[Arvid Kahl]: frugal about this. I mean, now
I'm buying a lot of studio equipment. I think

[Arvid Kahl]: my biggest expenses are microphones,
monitors, and cameras at this point to be able

[Arvid Kahl]: to do what I do. I don't spend
money on cars. I don't even own a car. Like

[Arvid Kahl]: we have one family car and it's
not mine. I like walking to the store and that's

[Arvid Kahl]: my life, right? It's just, there
is no kind of keeping up with the Joneses kind

[Arvid Kahl]: of creep in my life because I
don't like that. And I never was a person to

[Arvid Kahl]: do this, frankly, because I never
had enough money to start. That's kind of how

[Arvid Kahl]: I feel. I never had enough income
to even start keeping up with other people.

[Arvid Kahl]: And now that I have, I don't need
that. I invested in my business again, which

[Arvid Kahl]: is... and our lives here too,
like in this fine province of Ontario, we just

[Arvid Kahl]: building our little life here
and having a nice house and having time with

[Arvid Kahl]: family and friends, that's what
we spend our money on, not necessarily fancy

[Arvid Kahl]: things. So yeah, sorry, that's
just derailed into a description of my financial

[Arvid Kahl]: life. But honestly, I think this
is something that is a consequence of me never

[Arvid Kahl]: really. following the salaried
employee narrative. And I think you brought

[Arvid Kahl]: this up just now with, you know,
when should you do what, right? The narrative

[Arvid Kahl]: that we all are part of an economy
and everybody should contribute and be compensated

[Arvid Kahl]: for it for 45 years and then you
retire. That kind of narrative. Or you have

[Arvid Kahl]: to find a job, you have to then
immediately buy a house and be in a place and

[Arvid Kahl]: you can never be a nomad, right?
Because you have to start a family and have

[Arvid Kahl]: to pay like for a car, get a loan
here, get a loan for that, the standard narrative

[Arvid Kahl]: that most people follow. And I
think you, you, by mentioning just digital

[Arvid Kahl]: nomadism, that just completely
breaks the paradigm. And that is a wonderful

[Arvid Kahl]: idea for an entrepreneur is to
start breaking narrative paradigms. Right?

[Arvid Kahl]: about what a business should look
like. Should you get VC funding? Yeah, sure,

[Arvid Kahl]: every business needs funding,
right? No, that is not necessarily true. Or

[Arvid Kahl]: should you build it in secret
and then sell it to whoever wants it? Well,

[Arvid Kahl]: maybe that's also not a narrative
that's true. Maybe you can do this in a more

[Arvid Kahl]: public sphere. I think what this
boils down to me for is breaking the paradigms

[Arvid Kahl]: of narrative that are established
in the society around us. And unfortunately,

[Arvid Kahl]: often enough, this narrative is
parroted by our parents, by our spouses, by

[Arvid Kahl]: our friends, and by our colleagues.
I kind of to bring this all together. Like

[Arvid Kahl]: the fact that we have such trouble
with them understanding what we're doing is

[Arvid Kahl]: that they are living the narrative
of somebody else and they are repeating the

[Arvid Kahl]: narrative that somebody else has
instilled in them. Our schools, our social

[Arvid Kahl]: systems, our economic theory that
whatever country is following at any given

[Arvid Kahl]: time, all of this kind of trickles
down into narratives that we hopefully can

[Arvid Kahl]: break. So I don't know why I'm
here now at this point. My train of thought

[Arvid Kahl]: took me here, but I just alighted
and I exited

[Tyler Tringas]: Let's
[Arvid Kahl]: took me here, but I just alighted
and I exited

[Tyler Tringas]: Let's

[Arvid Kahl]: at the
[Tyler Tringas]: Let's

[Arvid Kahl]: at the

[Tyler Tringas]: bring

[Arvid Kahl]: station.
[Tyler Tringas]: bring

[Arvid Kahl]: station.

[Tyler Tringas]: it home. I think I think you
you made a great point there, which is and
[Arvid Kahl]: station.

[Tyler Tringas]: it home. I think I think you
you made a great point there, which is and

[Tyler Tringas]: I wanted to sort of talk a
little bit about, okay, what, what do we think

[Tyler Tringas]: you know, maybe other folks
who are feeling a lot of these feelings that

[Tyler Tringas]: we've been describing could
do and

[Arvid Kahl]: Yes.

[Tyler Tringas]: I do think you just touched
on the number one thing which is not. It's
[Arvid Kahl]: Yes.

[Tyler Tringas]: I do think you just touched
on the number one thing which is not. It's

[Tyler Tringas]: like kind of straightforward
and simple and a lot of folks have unpacked

[Tyler Tringas]: in a bunch of different ways,
but just kind of like assessing the. You know,

[Tyler Tringas]: the script or the playbook
or the narrative that you sort of have this

[Tyler Tringas]: perception that you're supposed
to be on and really just questioning that,

[Tyler Tringas]: right? I mean, a lot of entrepreneurship
is questioning other narratives about, you

[Tyler Tringas]: know, the world, right? You
know, okay, this market is saturated. Nobody

[Tyler Tringas]: else could enter it. Is that
really true? You know, like a lot of the opportunities

[Tyler Tringas]: come from that. And sometimes
we forget to apply that same kind of critical

[Tyler Tringas]: lens to. our own lives, right?
To the narratives that we tell ourselves that

[Tyler Tringas]: other people try to impose
on us to say like, well, you should be doing

[Tyler Tringas]: X, Y, and Z. And, and you can
sort of take that same entrepreneurs kind of

[Tyler Tringas]: skeptical, critical thinking
analysis to it and say like, wait, is that

[Tyler Tringas]: true? And what do you often
find is like, no, you don't have to do that

[Tyler Tringas]: at all. Like, you can actually
do whatever you want in your life. And what's

[Tyler Tringas]: been really helpful for me
personally has been to connect with not just

[Tyler Tringas]: so we're going to I was going
to suggest, you know, connecting with other

[Tyler Tringas]: entrepreneurs, I think that's
kind of the no brainer, which is try to find

[Tyler Tringas]: your community. And we can
talk a little about that. But but also just

[Tyler Tringas]: connecting with other people
who are living lives that are just very different.

[Tyler Tringas]: I got this primarily just from
traveling a ton. But there's certainly other

[Tyler Tringas]: ways you could probably do
this. But but getting a firsthand experience

[Tyler Tringas]: of other people who are living
dramatically sort of off script lifestyles

[Tyler Tringas]: and this could be maybe through
podcasts or whatever but just sort of hearing

[Tyler Tringas]: other people Describe a non-traditional
approach to their lives. I think helps you

[Tyler Tringas]: like widen the aperture of
What's allowed what's possible, you know and

[Tyler Tringas]: and I think really reinforcing
that to say like yeah A bunch of people think

[Tyler Tringas]: I'm off script here But like,
that's okay. And a lot of people live their

[Tyler Tringas]: lives that way, and it's fine,
you know? You don't have to do any of those

[Tyler Tringas]: narratives. So I think that's
like kind of step one, is just like this base

[Tyler Tringas]: level understanding that, you
know, you can just kind of do whatever you

[Tyler Tringas]: want. Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah,

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: that's also what Paul is writing
about in like

[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.

[Arvid Kahl]: the pathless path, right?
[Tyler Tringas]: Sure.

[Arvid Kahl]: the pathless path, right?

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.
[Arvid Kahl]: the pathless path, right?

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: Let's bring that book into the
mix here as well. The path that you choose

[Arvid Kahl]: can just also be one of wandering
around intentionally, right? It doesn't need

[Arvid Kahl]: to be somebody else's script you
follow. It could be just you be writing your

[Arvid Kahl]: own script retroactively by just
walking the path you want to walk and just

[Arvid Kahl]: taking opportunities as they present
themselves and then they connect the dots retrospectively,

[Arvid Kahl]: which is... or retroactively,
I guess. That's how it works anyway, right?

[Arvid Kahl]: Like most people describing their
journey, and then you see this a lot in memoirs

[Arvid Kahl]: and stuff, like they find a lot
of stuff that kind of connected, but it was

[Arvid Kahl]: not connected in the moment. It
was never connected. Like the next thing, the

[Arvid Kahl]: next opportunity just happened,
and they had this gut feeling that it was a

[Arvid Kahl]: good one to follow, and then they
took it on, and it turned into something that

[Arvid Kahl]: connected super well with everything
else. But that wasn't obvious at that moment.

[Arvid Kahl]: It became obvious later when the
things all kind of fell into place. There's

[Arvid Kahl]: this nice, in sociology, I think
this nice graph of the decision tree that you

[Arvid Kahl]: make in your life. And the decision
tree that you made up till this point is just

[Arvid Kahl]: one path among many decisions
that led you to where you are. And from now,

[Arvid Kahl]: there is an infinite amount of
possible decisions that you can still make.

[Arvid Kahl]: But every year that you step forward
into this decision tree, the path that you

[Arvid Kahl]: went and made decisions gets longer.
But the path in front of you is still infinite.

[Arvid Kahl]: That's kind of what always motivates
me to just look into opportunities as something

[Arvid Kahl]: that probably connects to whatever
I did in the past. Just take the opportunity

[Arvid Kahl]: and see where it goes. And that
is the journey of my life. That's my pathless

[Arvid Kahl]: path. Kind of. That's how I feel
it. And I love that you talk about finding

[Arvid Kahl]: your peers and building community.
That's the easiest way to find it, I feel.

[Arvid Kahl]: Like, because you see, not only
do you see other people walk their own path,

[Arvid Kahl]: which is inspirational, but you
also see the decision making that goes into

[Arvid Kahl]: it. How they weigh risk. how they
defend their decisions against others, just

[Arvid Kahl]: like what we've been doing here,
with describing how we defend our choice of

[Arvid Kahl]: entrepreneurship to our families,
to our spouses, to our peers. That is something

[Arvid Kahl]: that just the fact that we did
it might inspire somebody else to also do it

[Arvid Kahl]: and find their own path. And for
that, you need to be in the community where

[Arvid Kahl]: you get exposed to conversations
like ours. Right, if you're just in a community

[Arvid Kahl]: where people go the traditional
ways and talk about how to build a career and

[Arvid Kahl]: how to write a CV, Well, you won't
necessarily find inspiration to defend your

[Arvid Kahl]: own choices, right? So that is
a big deal for me as well. Yeah, I think community

[Arvid Kahl]: is the biggest thing and community
of different ways. I love the idea that you

[Arvid Kahl]: talk about both finding your own
bubble and bursting your bubble at the same

[Arvid Kahl]: time. Right, you find your community
of a founder bubble, that's great that everybody

[Arvid Kahl]: is encouraging and stuff, but
you also wanna see people who live a completely

[Arvid Kahl]: wild life that is magically different
from yours.

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: That's also something cool. So
it's like build a bubble and burst it. What
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Arvid Kahl]: a great way to live your life.
[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Tyler Tringas]: Yeah.

[Tyler Tringas]: I love that. I think that's
a great place

[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah,
[Tyler Tringas]: I love that. I think that's
a great place

[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah,

[Tyler Tringas]: to leave it.
[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah,

[Arvid Kahl]: Yeah,

[Arvid Kahl]: I think so too. Well, I do want
to give a shout out today because I feel we've

[Arvid Kahl]: been talking about Paul a lot
and we've been talking about Dago Bear a lot

[Arvid Kahl]: like the two people that have
been inspirational in for me and just thinking

[Arvid Kahl]: about this. So big shout out to
Paul Millard with his amazing book The Pathless

[Arvid Kahl]: Path and a big shout out to Dago
Bear Renouf who is on a podcast just like this

[Arvid Kahl]: one where he and James McKinven
talk about their bootstrapper founder journey

[Arvid Kahl]: and I kind of want to give that
a shout out like it's called This Indie Life.

[Arvid Kahl]: And it's a wonderful podcast now,
I think at episode 20. And we're just behind,

[Arvid Kahl]: I think, by 10 episodes. Probably
we will never catch up if they keep going and

[Arvid Kahl]: we keep going, we're always gonna
be like 10 episodes apart. But that is a great

[Arvid Kahl]: show that I listen to on a weekly
basis whenever it comes out, because it's just

[Arvid Kahl]: nice to follow the journey of
people that motivate me. And that's a shout

[Arvid Kahl]: out that I wanted to give today.
Do you have anything you wanna shout out?

[Tyler Tringas]: Yup, all good for me.

[Arvid Kahl]: Wonderful. Well, then let's draw
this to a conclusion. My dog is just barking

[Arvid Kahl]: in the background. You've got
to get the live experience here today. I've

[Arvid Kahl]: been setting up a way for people
who listen to the show to give it a rating

[Arvid Kahl]: and a review. If you would like
to do this, please go to ratethispodcast.com

[Arvid Kahl]: slash catch up. That's C-A-T-C-H-U-P,
one word. And you can find links that automatically

[Arvid Kahl]: go to the Apple Podcasts place
and Spotify and stuff, where you can give this

[Arvid Kahl]: show. much deserved five star
rating. Please do that and give it a review

[Arvid Kahl]: if you like the show and if you
like us. That would be really helpful. Put

[Arvid Kahl]: us in front of more people who
might actually need to hear what we've been

[Arvid Kahl]: talking about today. And if you're
a founder who's been through these things,

[Arvid Kahl]: you know that there are a lot
of peers who also need to hear this. So please

[Arvid Kahl]: share this with them. You can
also go to catchup.fm, find all the episodes,

[Arvid Kahl]: all the seven or so episodes we've
been doing up until this point and link people.

[Arvid Kahl]: from there, it would be really
appreciated. And yeah, I'm gonna talk to you

[Arvid Kahl]: again next week. And that's it
for this week.

[Tyler Tringas]: See you next week.